• Registered: 2004-03-30
  • Posts: 161

Topic: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

Hey everyone.  It's been years since I've posted on here.  But I do try and keep up with the threads.  Instaling fresh heads on my 75 F.I Super and had a question.  I am not planning on moving the "jugs" at this point and time.  So can I just bolt the new heads on?  Do I need to install any type of shim or gasket inbetween the heads and the cylinders?  The heads are brand new and not rebuilt.  Also I do not have an engine stand, but saw a thread on the Samba saying you shouldn't install the heads with the engine sitting in its regular flat position, that the engine should be rotated 90 degrees.  Any truth to that????  Thanks in advance!

  • Registered: 2010-10-19
  • Posts: 34

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

Hi, I've been installing heads with the engine sitting upright for many years, never ever had a problem. 90 degrees?

MGM Grand Hotel and Casino Las Vegas
  • From: somewhere over the rainbow USA
  • Registered: 2006-07-26
  • Posts: 1,889

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

You need to have the shims if you are worried about the correct compression ratio. Some people just install the heads and don't worry about the C/R. Take what you read from the experts on the other site with a grain of salt, ROTFLMOA  Sounds something like my bud Ryan would tell you.Why does the engine care if it is north/south, east /west,up/down left/right etc. might mess up the karma I suppose or is that the dogma? I get them messed up
I have installed many a head like MGMKID with the engine upright. OMG did I f@#$%up all these years???
On a note is your VW still fuel injected and if yes are the heads the correct ones?

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.
  • hank
  • Member
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  • From: British Columbia Canada
  • Registered: 2004-03-30
  • Posts: 430

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

We always hand lap the cylinders to the heads


Which means you have to pull the cylinders away from the pistons and block
All the cooling tin will have to be removed around the cylinders to get to them

putting it back together--don't forget to install the bottom air deflectors


and use the cylinder with valve grinding compound on the lip that mates to the head

hot soapy water to clean both

then reinstall the cylinders back to the pistons they came from
you can use a stainless steel hose clamp or a thin sheet of metal to make a ring compressor


a little silicone seal under the cylinders

Do you have the "Idiots Manual"?

have fun
hank

'57 bug "BlackBerry"
'58 type261 single cab "Ruf"
'86 vanagon syncro "Syncro da Dr.Mayo"
and way too many project waiting
  • From: Portage, Indiana
  • Registered: 2004-03-27
  • Posts: 454

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

When putting new heads on "other" motors such as v-8's, it is common practice to rotate the block when sliding the head over the studs to keep debris from falling into the motor. Bits of casting flash in the stud holes being the main culprit. This is not such a problem on a VW motor, just leave the motor on your bench or floor or whatever in it's  normal upright orientation, it'll be fine. As mentioned above you should at least pull each jug out a little and seal it at the base, you will have oil leaks otherwise.

Jordan

  • Registered: 2004-03-30
  • Posts: 161

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

Thanks guys, I was questioning the logic behind having the engine at a 90 degree angle to install the heads.  At least that is cleared up.  Thanks MGMkid!  Burrhead this is infact a fuel injected motor and yes I did make sure to get the good heads.  Paid a little more to get the brand new mexican made ones.  Hank, I have heard about lapping the heads to the cylinders but have been reluctant to pull the jugs all the way off, as I didn't want to have to deal with recompressing the rings, even though it doesn't sound like a big deal.  Is it really necessary to lap the heads to the jugs?  Jordan, my jugs do leak where they contact the case.  If I don't pull them off all the way to lap them as was suggested, is it safe to pull them out just enough to put some sealant on them where they contact the case.  I've pulled everything off the motor in an attempt to fix the massive oil leaks this thing has had.  New oil pump and gaskets, flushed the oil cooler and replaced all 4 of the doughnuts, replaced rear main seal, etc.  All engine tin has been removed, scrubbed clean and repainted with high temp black paint.  Quite an undertaking but Max really needed it.  Previous owner did a rebuild of some sort which I think included new bearings and possibly new rings as I don't burn oil and there is no play when you push/pull on the crankshaft pulley.

  • From: somewhere over the rainbow USA
  • Registered: 2006-07-26
  • Posts: 1,889

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

My opinion is  you don't need to lap in the jugs. And  if you don't feel like pulling the jugs all the way off, clean them up the best you can and just use a little silicone on the base. These cars and engines are very forgiving and don't need a TOTAL rebuild every time you have a problem with them wink

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.
  • Registered: 2004-03-30
  • Posts: 161

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

Burrhead, you are right about the forgiving part.  I've had this car since 2002 and have logged many, many miles on it and he always performs like a champ. Had a problem with #3 valve which is why I pulled everything apart and decided now would be a good time to replace the heads.  I shouldn't need to set compression or anything, should I?  And just to double check, it is okay if I only pull the jugs back part way to clean where the jug meets the case and put a little motoseal on the jug.  If I do this, what position should the piston be in when I pull the jug back??  Thanks again!

  • From: somewhere over the rainbow USA
  • Registered: 2006-07-26
  • Posts: 1,889

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

it would be best to check the CR but seeing you don't want to do that, at least check the cc's in the heads between old and new to make sure it is in the ball park. I know lots of people who don't so your call.
Yes some sort of sealer where the jug meets case. Does not matter where piston is as long as you don't pull the jug  past the rings wink
Good Luck

Last edited by burrhead (2011-07-10 13:17:56)

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.
  • Registered: 2004-03-30
  • Posts: 161

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

Burrhead,  I don't know how to check the CR or the cc's.  Is it a pretty straight forward process?  Looking at the old heads and the new heads, it does not appear that the old ones were ever rebuilt.  Another question is when I pull the jugs away from the case to reseal, if there is a paper gasket installed, can I just remove it, or would that have an affect on the deck height??

  • From: Portage, Indiana
  • Registered: 2004-03-27
  • Posts: 454

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

There probably will be a paper gasket, or what's left of it. You can remove it without affecting the deck height or CR. Make an effort not to squish any silicone into the case when you re-seal the jugs. Replacing your stock heads with new stock heads shouldn't affect the CR in any noticeable amount, I think you will be fine. You should, however, look up how to do the CR and deck height calculations, it's good to know, not very hard, and might serve you well in the future. Good luck with your new(ish) motor smile

Jordan

  • Registered: 2004-03-30
  • Posts: 161

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

Jordan, thank you.  I did run into something when pulling the jugs back, that "inspired" me to check into deck height and head cc measurement.  And I went ahead and ordered the tools to do it.  When pulling back the jugs I discovered not only were the paper gaskets not there (nor ANY type of sealant between jug and case no wonder it leaked so badly) but that there is a metal shim on each jug where it meets the case.  Although I haven't yet measured the thickness of these shims, just from eyeballing, it looks like shims on 2 and 4 area thicker than 1 and 3.  Could be mistaken and won't know unitl I measure.  So I decided I needed to learn how to check and set the compression properly so I can figure out what is up with those shims.  The old heads did not appear to have any machine work done to them.  Lol these simple jobs always turn into  more.  But I've used this time to do a lot of degreasing and painting.  Hopefully when it goes back together it will run cooler and better than it did before!

  • Registered: 2004-03-30
  • Posts: 161

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

Okay, so I ended up getting a deck height measurement tool and cc'd the new heads.  Erroneously cut the old shims off but realized I do need them to keep compression under 7.5:1.  So bought some new ones and removed cylinders 1 and 3.  Looks like there is some scorching on the sides of both of those pistons.   Also looks like the oil scraper rings are not properly orientated.  Could this be the reason for the scorching?  And will it hurt anything if I properly orientate the rings before I put the jugs back on?  Or am I sure to burn oil if I mess up the current orientation??

  • From: Portage, Indiana
  • Registered: 2004-03-27
  • Posts: 454

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

What exactly do you mean by "not properly oriented?" Oil blow-by will leave black streaks on the cylinders, but you should have noticed that in the exhaust smoke and valves as well, if it's that bad. At this point in your build I'd recommend mic'ing the cylinders, check end gap on the rings, the whole bit. Rings and cylinders are cheap, after all, and even if you don't need new ones you at least will know what you're running with. If you're working on a tight budget I'd suggest at least new rings, coupled with your new heads, and you should be fine.

Jordan

  • Registered: 2004-03-30
  • Posts: 161

Re: Installing New Heads on 1600cc

JordanK wrote:

What exactly do you mean by "not properly oriented?" Oil blow-by will leave black streaks on the cylinders, but you should have noticed that in the exhaust smoke and valves as well, if it's that bad. At this point in your build I'd recommend mic'ing the cylinders, check end gap on the rings, the whole bit. Rings and cylinders are cheap, after all, and even if you don't need new ones you at least will know what you're running with. If you're working on a tight budget I'd suggest at least new rings, coupled with your new heads, and you should be fine.

Jordan

The oil scrapper ring, for example, is NOT at the 12 o clock position.  More like 10 or 11 o'clock  on one cylinder.  The other two rings are also in various positions on various pistons.  #1 the top and middle rings are ag 4 and 8 o clock positions.  #3 they are at 11 and 1 o'clock positions, etc.  I am working on an extremely tight budget.  I may just leave as is for now and in the not too distant future, when funds allow just do a complete rebuild..