Topic: Enematic Brake Bleeding system - bleed brakes yourself for < $2

I recently wanted to replace my brake cylinders and bleed my brakes myself, and I have heard about this device you can use made by MOTIVE Products that uses air-pressure in the brake fluid reservoir, and also devices that suck the brake fluid out, but I thought, you know, it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to come up with some relatively cheap way to bleed your brakes yourself.  Well, following is the technique I came up with.  It costs less than $2.00 and I think John Muir of Idiot Manual fame would appreciate it.  First of all, we have a photo of all the components of my Enematic Brake Bleeding System laid out on a piece of paper (note - the steel rule is not part of the system but is just to give reference against which the tubing's length can be judged):

http://www.bew.zoomshare.com/album/Enematic%20Brake%20Bleeding/images/a104e52dab395da444eb1bd1e25a2cdd_12842020200/midsize.jpg

I wanted to find some kind of container that had a nipple that would just fit tubing that would be the perfect size for the brake bleeder valves, and I came upon an enema bottle.  This has just the right size to fit that tube.  You need one of those bottles.  You need a short piece of plastic tubing (what I've used is 5/16" Outside diameter and 3/16" Inside diameter vinyl tubing).  What you want to do is, attach this to bleeder valve and have it the right length such that it is always going up from the end of the bleeder valve, and it should be as short as possible to get to the enema bottle's opening (I used 3½" long tubing for the front-left wheel).  When you bleed the brakes, you are essentially pushing all the air bubbles out.  So, as soon as the brake fluid leaves the end of the bleeder valve, if your tube is going up, the bubbles that exit there will have no way of getting back into the system.  At first I thought that would be good enough.  But there are 2 problems. One is, it isn't necessarily true that you can push enough brake fluid through the system with just one push-down of the brake pedal (when you are bleeding any one particular brake) to force all the air bubbles out the bleeder valve (it may be true for the left-front wheel, which is the one I am demonstrating on here, but what about the rear wheels, for example).  Another thing is, I wanted this brake bleeding system to be able to totally replace the old brake fluid with the new.  So I needed some kind of one way valve to let you keep pumping on the brake pedal.  The idea I came up with was, you would have some kind of small metallic cylindrical thing within the plastic tubing (I originally thought of using that little piece that comes on top of new spark plugs) with a small steel ball that would sit on top of it.  This I thought would keep the liquid coming up, but would prevent it from going back down.  However, once I found the enema bottle, I looked inside the top part and saw it was made just right to have a small (I used 5/16") steel ball put right down onto its sloping surface, and this would do the job of being a one way valve.  I put it all together and it did seem to work.


So first you empty the enema bottle of its contents:

http://www.bew.zoomshare.com/album/Enematic%20Brake%20Bleeding/images/b93a897e4eed2655d72f96a0cfc35e8a_12842020480/midsize.jpg


Then you attach the top of the bottle to the bleeder valve via a short piece (I used 3½" long) of tubing and you mount that top of the bottle to some part of your vehicle (I used some thick steel wire to mount this to tie rod end).  Then you open the bleeder valve.  Now at this point this system's valve (steel ball) has not been added:

http://www.bew.zoomshare.com/album/Enematic%20Brake%20Bleeding/images/9b104e25e9054edcdce4aa5534257ae5_12842020700/midsize.jpg


Here I add the steel ball to create a one-way valve:

http://www.bew.zoomshare.com/album/Enematic%20Brake%20Bleeding/images/f49e0181dfe96c2ac3d3ed48307abe69_12842020880/midsize.jpg


Now, here I need to attach the bottle to it's top.  I hadn't thought about this until I finally went to try this out, but you really need to deflate the bottle here as you are screwing it into it's top, because I assume that if you didn't, then when you tried to fill the bottle with brake fluid, there would be resistance from the air already in the bottle:

http://www.bew.zoomshare.com/album/Enematic%20Brake%20Bleeding/images/d1be0aeb196976552ce3cad4780577c5_12842021070/midsize.jpg


Now here is what the bottle looks like after you have pumped the brake pedal a few times.  Notice that it is getting filled with brake fluid and the brake fluid is remaining in the bottle (without the steel ball, I assume the brake fluid would be pulled out of the bottle back into the wheel cylinder when you released the brake pedal).  Now, this isn't quite as good a system of bleeding the brakes as those others I mentioned up at the top of this post, since you don't get to be right there where the fluid is coming out to see if there are any more bubbles coming out.  But, I still think this should work pretty well.  After pumping the brake the required number of times (it would be nice to know how many times is enough for each of the wheel cylinders), all the air bubbles should have been pushed out. Since the tubing coming out of the bleeder valve is going UP into the bottle, any bubbles that exit the bleeder valve with be pushed up into the bottle and will not be able to return to the system:

http://www.bew.zoomshare.com/album/Enematic%20Brake%20Bleeding/images/e09c78b08e07ca7e17c2b0bd95d78e71_12842021220/midsize.jpg


Now I have to admit I have only tried using this on the front-left wheel.  I was going to do all the wheels (replace brake cylinders and bleed them) but I found I couldn't even get the lug nuts off the front-right wheel.  But anyway, if anyone knows any problems they think might crop up using this system, it would be nice to hear about them.

Re: Enematic Brake Bleeding system - bleed brakes yourself for < $2

I have used just any old jar and a tight fitting hose over the  bleeder valve going into the jar partially filled with brake fluid. Just make sure the hose stays submerged in the brake fluid and pump your brakes a few times.  Works for me.

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.

Re: Enematic Brake Bleeding system - bleed brakes yourself for < $2

In my mind, this is what VW's are all about big_smile

-biggie

Re: Enematic Brake Bleeding system - bleed brakes yourself for < $2

burrhead wrote:

I have used just any old jar and a tight fitting hose over the  bleeder valve going into the jar partially filled with brake fluid. Just make sure the hose stays submerged in the brake fluid and pump your brakes a few times.  Works for me.

Like I said, IF you are able to push enough brake fluid out of the master cylinder to displace ALL the brake fluid within the brake lines between the MC and the bleeder valve of the brake you are bleeding, plus the length of hose going from bleeder valve to the jar, with just one stroke of the brake pedal, THEN that idea (which is how the VW instruction manual says to do it and its also how the Bentley manual says to do it) will work.  For example, I think that will work for the left-front wheel cylinder and possibly the right-front cylinder.  But IF you cannot displace ALL the brake fluid between MC and bleeder valve (plus the length of hose going into the jar) with just one stroke of the brake pedal, THEN you need to either
1) once you've pushed the brake pedal all the way to the floor, have someone else close the bleeder valve while you are keeping the brake pedal down (and note that this technique I came up with is specifically for a one-person bleeder job),
OR
2) once you've pushed the brake pedal all the way to the floor, figure out some way to keep it down on the floor while you go and close the bleeder valve, after which you can let the brake pedal return to up position and THEN you can open bleeder value again

That's the way I've conceived it anyway.  The technique of just putting a hose from the bleeder valve into a jar of brake fluid and opening the bleeder valve, and then pumping the brakes a few times, will not work if you cannot totally displace the brake fluid from the MC to the end of the hose going into the jar of brake fluid.  Because every time you release the brake pedal, the brake fluid will be drawn back into the MC from the wheel cylinders, won't it?  So lets say you have an air bubble just at the point where the brake line is attached to the master cylinder.  That air bubble would never be able to completely exit the system.  It would be pushed only some fraction of the full distance it needs to go to exit the end of the hose in the jar of brake fluid.  And then when you released the brake pedal, it would be sucked back up, back to its original position.  That's why I needed a one-way valve in the bottle.  That is a necessary part of the system, in order to be able to do this yourself.  But I could be misunderstanding what is going on.  Maybe the master cylinder already has some kind of one-way valve for the brake fluid going to the wheel cylinders. But I don't think so.  (If it did, then it seems to me that when you were driving your car and put on the brakes to stop, then releasing the brake pedal wouldn't release the brakes.)

And speaking of the one-way valve.  I suggested using a steel ball.  The steel ball I bought at my local hardware store was chrome-covered and that makes it look pretty and gives the impression it is perfectly smooth and should make a real good seal with the inside of top of the enema bottle. But after using this just once, I noticed the chrome is starting to come off.  So that is kind of a bummer.  So I was thinking, maybe something better to use here would be a glass sphere (which is basically just a marble).  Trouble is, where could you buy just one glass sphere or marble, and of the correct size?  I don't know.



LATER ...



No!  no!  NO!!  Duh! duh!  DUH!!  I can't f***ing believe this!!  I was just looking at my VW Instruction Manual and then later my Bentley manual.  They describe doing just what burrhead said that he does.  They don't say anything about what I was talking about, that that's not going to work for a rear brake cylinder, for example.  I was reading these, and I was just going "No, I just don't understand this".  So I started looking closely at the diagram of the valve in the master cylinder.  The way this valve works is, when you press on the brake pedal, the pressure you create in the bore of the MC causes a valve to open up and the brake fluid moves out towards the slave cylinders.  When you release pressure on brake pedal, that valve closes but another valve opens based on the back pressure coming from the slave cylinders, and that lets the brake fluid move back into the MC.  However, if you have the bleeder valve of a wheel cylinder open, then I guess there is no back pressure and that second valve does not open.  Meaning, with a bleeder valve open, you have in effect a one-way valve.  You press down on the brake pedal, that shoots fluid out towards any open bleeder valves, but when you release the brake pedal, there is no pressure to open the return valve.  So if you pump the brakes, the brake fluid keeps moving out, never returning!  You have a one-way valve!  All this time, for my entire life up to this point, I always believed that there was no such convenient feature in the system.  I always assumed that when you wanted to bleed the brakes, you needed someone there with you (unless you bought one of those bleeder devices I mentioned in my original post).  For example, the last time I bled my brakes, I had my Dad there helping me.  I would open one of the bleeder valves, then tell him to push the brake pedal down and keep it down.  After he had done that, I believed I needed to close the bleeder valve, otherwise air would get sucked back in when he released the brake pedal, because I assumed there was no valve operating in the system to keep this from happening!  Argh!!!  This is why I wanted to come up with some relatively cheap technique to do this yourself, because the way I thought you had to do it was kind of a pain.  Ok, so now, if I understand what is going on correctly,  I still don't get this:  Why is it necessary to have the other end of the hose coming off the bleeder valve go down into some brake fluid.  That doesn't even seem necessary to me anymore. It made a lot of sense for my view of things before I understood what I do now, which was that air would get sucked back up into the brake line when you released the brake pedal (I also don't understand this step 5 in the instruction manual: "The brake pedal should be kept fully depressed until the bleeder valve is closed." Again, that's more in line with my original conception.).  Sigh, I still can't believe I have misunderstood this all this time, for my entire life!  Someone please tell me I am not the only one in the world who was stupid enough to think this!!  Sigh!

Oh well.  As Emily Litella used to say, "never mind..."

Re: Enematic Brake Bleeding system - bleed brakes yourself for < $2

1964SunRoof wrote:

Someone please tell me I am not the only one in the world who was stupid enough to think this!

Don't be so hard on yourself. nothing wrong with trying to think outside the box to try and improve things. What a dull world indeed if we all thought the same  wink
We'd still be crawling let alone walking

Last edited by burrhead (2010-10-06 04:15:41)

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.