Topic: About those Brakes............

Hiya All,

Just got finished redoing the brakes on my 1970 Bug.  And I seem to have a bit of a problem.

Details..........  I replaced the shoes all the way around.  New hardware all the way around.  New seals up front and wheel bearings packed.  New wheel cylinders in the rear.  All parts to be reused (the parking brake equipment in the rear) was cleaned and refitted.  Matter of fact everything was clean, clean, clean.

Rear drums went back on at 250 ft lbs with a new cotter pin.  Fronts went back on and the play in the wheel was tweaked so as not to pinch the bearings.  Brakes were adjusted all the way around and then bled out all four.  Actually, I bled out way more than I had to so that the system would be cleaned out a bit. 

Test run for braking was excellent in most respects.  Hands off the wheel and the car stopped in a perfectly straight line.  The stop was very short when mucho pressure was applied to the pedal suddenly (as in panic stop).  None of the wheels locked up indicating to me that all four are contributing to the stop in an even manner.

Sounds great so far, right?  Well the performance was great.

But the problem seems to be that I have to apply noticeably more pressure to the brake pedal.  I've not experienced this before in redoing brakes.  Any ideas as to why I might be having to use more foot pressure?

Mike

1970 AS Bug
1970 Bus - The Ruptured Duck

Re: About those Brakes............

The shoes, WHERE did you get them? The drums COULD be machined too much causing less shoe contact which should get better as they are broke in and readjusted, OR as I have found out lately the quality and composition of the brake shoe material will affect stopping distance...Try a high qaulity shoe set from Napa and see what happpens....

                                                                 Yancey

Re: About those Brakes............

Yancey wrote:

The shoes, WHERE did you get them? .Try a high qaulity shoe set from Napa and see what happpens....  Yancey

It it my experience that the higher the cost of the shoe(read different material) the more foot pressure it takes to stop. If you used a NAPA  or CarQuest top of the line shoe, try  the lower priced ones and I'll bet you a cookie you won't have to use as much foot power to stop.  JMHO

                                                                    burrhead

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.

Re: About those Brakes............

I have been running Raybestos for 35k plus miles. These don't take a lot of pressure to stop. This last time I was forced to to replace wheel bearings the brakes looked pretty good. More than half of the lining still there.

Not a proud owner of Sally 1969 Sedan with a burned 1915 tiger under the deck lid.
Also George a 1957 Sedan, not yet started with Resto.

Re: About those Brakes............

Hiya Guys,

Thanks for the input!

Yancey:  I picked these up at my local VWFLAPS.  I've been doing business with these folks for the past fifteen years and they have an outstanding reputation for carrying only quality products.  I looked over the brake shoes before installing them and they sure looked like quality parts to me.

Burr:  Hmmmm that's an interesting take on the situation.  The better the material, the harder the pedal pressure?  Just outta curiosity, why do you think this might be so?  Are the cheaper linings "stickier"?  Given the fact that I did use pretty high quality stuff, I gotta consider this as a possible cause.

Anthony: Yep, my shoe linings weren't all that bad but my right rear wheel cylinder took a dump and juice wound up between the shoes and the drum creating a terrible squeak and ruining the shoe material.  Just decided to replace the shoes all the way around.

Mike

1970 AS Bug
1970 Bus - The Ruptured Duck

Re: About those Brakes............

The only conclusion I have come up with is that that the higher quality shoe has more hardened products in them for longer life thus more pedal effort. As you know these cars don't have a brake booster. No other profound scientific data other than that. It works for me.
  I have swapped them out for inexpensive shoes from NAPA and CarQuest to get rid of that feeling with good results to establish a "regular" pedal feel. Nothing like driving a car the first time with those shoes on  to the feeling of not wanting to stop. Not for me and my ticker.
Try it and report back.
         
                                                                      burrhead

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.

Re: About those Brakes............

Bookwus wrote:

Sounds great so far, right?  Well the performance was great.

But the problem seems to be that I have to apply noticeably more pressure to the brake pedal.  I've not experienced this before in redoing brakes.  Any ideas as to why I might be having to use more foot pressure?

Well it could be the new brake shoe linings...but basically you changed a lot of parts:

- brakes shoes
- wheel cylinders
- brake hardware

Add up the new brake linings, the stiffer/newer brake shoe return springs, the wheel cylinders...depending on how much harder we are talking...all these new parts may add some extra resistance.

The new brake shoes may have an outer "glazing" of some sort that just needs to be worn off to expose fresh brake lining material to make them "grab" better.

Maybe you're just being "extra" observant after doing all this work.

Maybe your right leg is just tired...making it seem like you have to push harder! ; )

If everything is working fine...I wouldn't be concerned about it!

- Nick

1979 Super Beetle Convertible

Re: About those Brakes............

Bug In My Nose wrote:

If everything is working fine...I wouldn't be concerned about it!- Nick

Not to pick on you but till you experienced this "feeling" with a car you have owned for awhile and know it well, you would not understand.
There is hardly a worse sensation than pushing on the brake pedal harder and harder to no avail.WTF ,am I going to stop or not!!!!    Except when the pedal goes completely to the floor wink

                                                                       burrhead

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.

Re: About those Brakes............

Heya Mike, I know the "feeling", and there are a few factors involved in your situation. Just changing one part of the braking system should not result in any significant pedal pressure requirements.
Now, when you go with all new parts, there is usually increased resistance in movement like Nick said, just because new parts need to get used a little to "loosen up", but your problem sounds like there is more going on than that.
I think the most difference would be made by a major difference in pad material, the pads not being bedded yet, and/or pad and drum contamination.

Burr is right about the pad and cost relationship; the lower end pads will be mostly organic compound which grabs better, but wears relatively quickly. More expensive pads will include metal fibers (semi-mets) in varying amounts and other added friction compounds. The more expensive pads, since they wear at a slower rate, will need more time to "bed", that is, to be worn enough to match the drum surface. Some of them are also desigend for different temperature ranges and just don't work well until they get hot. If these are a new brand for your bug, then I would start here. If you have used this same exact type of pad before, then we will need to look elsewhere for your problem.

Now, I don't know if your drums were turned or not, but if they were, then Yancy has an excellent point. When drums are turned, the inside diameter of the drum increases. The shoes are made to fit a stock virgin drum so that the shoe and the inner drum surface have the same radius. In this ideal circumstance, both shoes will have full contact with the drum and deliver the maximum grip for the pedal pressure applied. On a turned drum with new pads, the radius of the drum is now larger than the pads, and you can guess what happens; the pads will only have partial contact with the drum until they are worn down enough to match the drum size better.

Contamination? Possible, but you obviously are not a noob so I doubt you greased the bearings and wiped your hands on the new pads! However, if the drums were new, they come with an anti-oxdation coating which needs to be cleaned off or burnt off in a cople of hard stops. I think you already took care of the hard stops though...  wink

If you clear the possibilities with the pads and drums, then that leave the hydraulic components. Master cylinder is pushing fluid or you would not be able to bleed all four corners. Air is out because that would give you a spongy pedal instead of a hard pedal, unless the fluid reservior got low during bleeding and you have air lock in the master cylinder chamber. That would put the work of stopping on the front or the rear. This seems unlikely with the way you tested, but sometimes the rears are harder to detect a problem with because the bulk of the work is done with the front brakes anyway. When you did your panic stops, did you check for warmth on the drums? The front will get hot and the rears warm, but none of them should be cold.

I know this is a lot of info, so if it was me I'd jack up the car with a friend and see how much pressure on the pedal it takes to stop each wheel when turned by hand. If they all grab with the same slight pressure, then look at the pad quality issue, whether or not the drums were turned, and if there is any problem with the master cylinder.

Paul

Re: About those Brakes............

Arghhhh Im hurt you dont come to me with these problem's ??? LMAO
  Some time's I think I just talk , and nobody listen's !! Naught !! LMAO
  Turnin Drumm's !! 20 a peice !!
  New Drumm's !! 30 a peice !! Why turn a Drumm that is allready so light and small it suffer's from over heating !
  Be suprised how well a old drumm will clean up with Rough or coarse Sand Paper ??
  But that not your problem ???
  Blank Ceramic composites from Napa <<< Been threw it on severall ride's now from Buick's to Jeep's etc Buy the Mid priced Ceramic's if your car came with ceramic's as OEM !!
  If Ceramic's werent OEM on your Car ???? Buy Cheap one's <<< Whole 300 Page can of worm's here get opened up with these new Super Duper High Dollar ceramic, as and Composite shoe's etc.
  Had some really badd experience with the College educated New and Improved High Dollar Padd's and shoes !!
  But as to your Specific problem a Hard pedal !!
  Try this test !!
  Lock um up in the Dirt doin about 20 MPH and skid to a stop ! Get out and look at your Skid Mark's << On the Ground not in your Short's LMAO
  But 70% or 2/3rd's of the skid mark should be from the front axle as per 70% of stopping come's from the front brake's !! << Repeat process few times too make sure as Surface area your brakeing on can cause a false reading etc.
   Now understand that not only do V.W's not have a Brake Booster but they also have no Metering Valve's in the brake line Hydraulic system !
  Lil wheel cylinders in the rear axles V.S. bigger wheel cylinders in the front that need more Volume of Fluid etc. Etc. As per brake fluid being meterd to both Front and rear Axle's !
  So the way fluid is metered in a Bugg is by the Rod adjustment on the Pedal Assembly to the M.C.
  This Rod is a factory adjustment !! << what it say's in the book !! But there is a way to get it adjusted back right by use of your Brake light << Lil red light on the Dash on 69 and up and the understanding of the Skidd Test !!
  As per the adjusted lenght and travel of the M.C. Rod !
  Read manual on this and if any question's post again !!
  Note : THis problem is Common with V.W.'s so much so that Ive seen one Bugg wrecked after another over the year's just because of it !!
  In fact yesterday Dad Pulled a Girl's front fender out because she Rear ended another Car in her Bugg during a panic stop <<< With out even lookin at the Car ?? Just from the Story ??
   I would bett the Ranch Her M.C. Rod is out of adjustment !!!
                                                                           Sean

Re: About those Brakes............

Hiya All,

Well, as Paul suggested, I'm thinking that this has actually been a matter of the shoes getting bedded in with the drums.  And Burr's suggestion of a better quality shoe lining taking more pedal effort certainly seems to be in play here also.  The upshoot is that the pedal effort is becoming more relaxed/responsive each time I take her out which suggests, to me, that this is simply a matter of bedding in.

And I've been thinking about the context of this situation.  I've not experienced this phenomena before and I was wondering why.  It occured to me that in previous brake jobs I was changing out brake components that were pretty much completely shot.  The braking performance before the change out had been noticeably poor.   Anything then, would have been an improvement.  Perhaps (just perhaps) that is why I didn't notice anything unusual after the brake job.  Then again maybe it was, as Burr suggested a switch to a higher grade shoe lining.  Dunno for sure but those are ideas that popped into my head.  In any event, the shoes before this job were not in bad shape wear-wise.  Stopping was pretty much OK.  The problem was that the right rears had become somewhat contaminated with brake fluid from a leaky wheel cylinder.  Lots of squeaking and I wanted to get rid of that.  In addition the wear pattern on the left front shoes was uneven, so I changed the fronts out also.  Maybe I just noticed it this time around because the car stopped reasonably well before the change?

Thanks for all the suggestions and opinions.  They certainly gave me a bunch to think about!  You guys are great!  Yes, you too Sean!

Last edited by Bookwus (2009-08-26 08:14:16)

Mike

1970 AS Bug
1970 Bus - The Ruptured Duck

Re: About those Brakes............

burrhead wrote:
Bug In My Nose wrote:

If everything is working fine...I wouldn't be concerned about it!- Nick

Not to pick on you but till you experienced this "feeling" with a car you have owned for awhile and know it well, you would not understand.
There is hardly a worse sensation than pushing on the brake pedal harder and harder to no avail.WTF ,am I going to stop or not!!!!    Except when the pedal goes completely to the floor wink

                                                                       burrhead

I'm not sure how I missed this burrhead...but I don't really think that "Bookwus" original posting sounded quite that "panicky" regarding the stopping of his Beetle.

I would hardy say the two statements below represent the same situation:

Bookwus: "But the problem seems to be that I have to apply noticeably more pressure to the brake pedal."

Burrhead:"There is hardly a worse sensation than pushing on the brake pedal harder and harder to no avail.WTF ,am I going to stop or not!!!!"


Take special note (burrhead) of your use of:

- "WTF"
- the statement: "Am I going to stop or not"
- and the use of 4 exclamation points

In "Bookwus" original post...he NEVER sounded this panicky!


I definitely agree with you that if someone is having a brake related issue, where their car feels like its not going to stop & their going to crash into a tree, a pole, or another car...that that's not a very good feeling!  But I hardly think "Bookwus's" situation ever came to that level of panic.

I certainly would not have used the statement..."If everything is working fine...I wouldn't be concerned about it!"...if Bookwus sounded very panicky as if he just avoided a life threatening accident.

- Nick

1979 Super Beetle Convertible

Re: About those Brakes............

Bug In My Nose wrote:
burrhead wrote:
Bug In My Nose wrote:

If everything is working fine...I wouldn't be concerned about it!- Nick

Not to pick on you but till you experienced this "feeling" with a car you have owned for awhile and know it well, you would not understand.
There is hardly a worse sensation than pushing on the brake pedal harder and harder to no avail.WTF ,am I going to stop or not!!!!    Except when the pedal goes completely to the floor wink

                                                                       burrhead

I'm not sure how I missed this burrhead...but I don't really think that "Bookwus" original posting sounded quite that "panicky" regarding the stopping of his Beetle.

I would hardy say the two statements below represent the same situation:

Bookwus: "But the problem seems to be that I have to apply noticeably more pressure to the brake pedal."

Burrhead:"There is hardly a worse sensation than pushing on the brake pedal harder and harder to no avail.WTF ,am I going to stop or not!!!!"


Take special note (burrhead) of your use of:

- "WTF"
- the statement: "Am I going to stop or not"
- and the use of 4 exclamation points

In "Bookwus" original post...he NEVER sounded this panicky!


I definitely agree with you that if someone is having a brake related issue, where their car feels like its not going to stop & their going to crash into a tree, a pole, or another car...that that's not a very good feeling!  But I hardly think "Bookwus's" situation ever came to that level of panic.

I certainly would not have used the statement..."If everything is working fine...I wouldn't be concerned about it!"...if Bookwus sounded very panicky as if he just avoided a life threatening accident.

- Nick

And I stand by my original  statement that unless you have had this happen you, you don't know the feeling of WTF am I going to stop or not ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  Lighten up. it is just a figure of speech and if you think everything I post is serious go stick your head back in the sand.  LOL
  Wow who pissed in your wheaties today?

                                                                  burrhead

Last edited by burrhead (2009-08-26 11:39:44)

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.

Re: About those Brakes............

Hiya Guys,

Well, when I originally posted I wasn't panicky.  But I was a tad more than curious as to why the brake pedal took more effort.

And this comes from a deeply felt belief that the brakes are the single most important system on the car.  I know, all too well, exactly the point Burr makes about pressing the pedal and getting nothing.  Been there and I'm definitely not going back.  And so, in an effort to keep myself and my passengers safe, I wanted to know if this had been experienced by others and what, if anything, I should be doing about it.

Again I thank you all for your contributions.  You all helped.  Yes, even you Sean!

Mike

1970 AS Bug
1970 Bus - The Ruptured Duck

Re: About those Brakes............

Bookwus wrote:

And this comes from a deeply felt belief that the brakes are the single most important system on the car.  I know, all too well, exactly the point Burr makes about pressing the pedal and getting nothing.  Been there and I'm definitely not going back.  And so, in an effort to keep myself and my passengers safe, I wanted to know if this had been experienced by others and what, if anything, I should be doing about it.

I rest my case   (bowing down)      Your Majesty Nick  ROFLMAO
Contempt of the court? WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OOPS  sorry guilty as charged
Please send cookies to, Burrhead  in care of local county jail  Nick, Proprietor

                                                                 burrhead

burrhead

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.