Topic: pushrod tube length/oil seals

my new pushrod tubes appear to be the same length as the old ones, but when I put the cylinder head on, they hold it up quite a bit.  I know they're meant to compress, but this appears to be excessive...  All the books say to "check and make sure that the seals are seated correctly" but they all negate to tell you what "correctly" means, or how to "check" ...  I've worked them in quite a bit, moved them around, back n forth, and I've tried pushing down on the head to compress the tubes. 

http://www.thebignic.com/vw/pushrod-tubes.jpg

After pushing down on it (with quite a bit of force) I was able to take about half the distance down, but I cant hold the head down at that point to start any nuts...  I'm hesitant to try and torque anything down with that much force  coming just from the pushrod tubes. I also dont want to bend or break a new tube.

Judging from that photo, does that look right to you guys?  Any tips or tricks here?

-biggie

Re: pushrod tube length/oil seals

Hiya Nic,

Geez, you sure are running into a set of strange problems with this build.

The "accordian folds" on your tubes look pretty much compressed and you still have room to go on mounting that head properly.  Typically, when I'm doing an engine the tubes fit in the heads and case such that they are loose when the heads are set on the studs and pushed in with the hands.  The tubes only start to "lock in place" when the head nuts are started.  Matter of fact, there is a special head nut tightening sequence to seat those tubes and equalize the pressure all around the head for the final torqueing pattern.

When I do the tubes I measure them...........

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/AS%20Engine%20Build/IMG_1415.jpg

and then, if needed (and it almost always is) I pull them out about 1/4 inch longer than the minimum.....

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/AS%20Engine%20Build/IMG_1416.jpg

If your pushrod tubes are around 7 1/2 inches to 7 5/8 inches, they are the correct and specified length.  That, of course would mean that something is amiss with the cylinder length, the case, or the head.

Mike

1970 AS Bug
1970 Bus - The Ruptured Duck

Re: pushrod tube length/oil seals

You're right about the tube compression - the tubes are almost fully compressed with quite a bit more space to take up hmm

After I put in the barrel shims (0.090), the cylinders and pistons appeared to be OK (less than 2mm depth at TDC) which seems to indicate that the cylinders end exactly where they should in relation to the crank/case.  Since there doesn't appear to have been any machining done on the push-rod tube seats and the old tubes are the same length, the only conclusion that I've come to is that the heads require shorter/adjustable tubes.  Since they are aftermarket heads with larger valves and bore, perhaps EMPI assumes I'll be using adjustable tubes rather than stock... (Although I've never heard of any performance reason for doing so)

-biggie

Re: pushrod tube length/oil seals

Nah they should compress but why 90 thous on the Barrel shimm's that's a lott ?????
   You need to understand CC-ing the heads and you need to understand setting Deck Height .
  Then you need to understand that you can open up whole other can of worm's cause where you sett deck height will determine your CCR and as well as wether you have to make Push rod's or get away with stock Push rod's etc
  What Cam did you use ??
   Also you had the case decked ???
  Wow 90 seem's to be a lott ???
   First thing you need to do here is go intoo Vic's and play with there CCR Calc computer and look at there Calc chart !
  Then you need too CC the Heads wich is bacsically measureing the volume of the combustion chamber . Do this by cutting plexi glass same diameter as the cylinder . drill 2 hole's in it then get Vett Syringe that exceed's 60 cc's
   Fill combustion chamber up on the head by using the plexi glass window you made and the syringe .
      I use Gas mixed with Ford tranny ATF fluid .
     Suck up 60 cc's fill chamber then subtract what's left in the syring from 60 cc's .
  That's how many CC's your chamber is !
     Simple !
     Ive been Lake Meade - Ing  Just got Back !
    What's your Deck Height ?? <<< Measure this with steel rulers and a Feeler Gauge !
   Around 60 to 70 thous you can still get away with using stock push rod's in conjunction with swivel feet adjuster's and rocker shim's .
    As you get closer to 60 or Less with absolute Min. of say 50 Dependin on Head Configuration and Fly Cut Your gonna be left Makin Push rod's ! Cut to Lenght !
    At 60 or less you will need too use Play Do to check Valve clearance .
    Also in the Mix Keepin all this in Mind ??
     To run Pump Gas you need to stay under 9-1 On the CCR 9-1 you coukld still get away with runnin half a tank of gas of Regular on top of Premium !
    Least here in So Cal  .
    Other State's the Blend is better ???? But your Safe in 49 State's Runnin Premium at 9-1 or less I wouldnt go any lower than 8.5-1 on the CCR
   Im exhausted ! Sun Burned and sore ! Long Week end ! Even came back Day early !
  Go Figure ??
    But really spend a half hour in Vic's <<<< Well worth your time ! 90 just sound's like a lott ??
    Usuall on a Decked case is 20 or 40  thous. to get a deck height around 60 thous. with a Hemi Cutt head that usually putt's me right at 8.5-1 or Lil higher dependin on the Hemi cutt and how it CC'd you not being Hemi Cutt Might lean torward's 70 or 80 thous. Put you in the Ball Park ??
   Clancy has the URL for Vic's ask him then look for CCR Calc and click on it !
   You can learn a lott in Vic's get a complete understanding real quick as to what you want to do and how to do it ??
   Spend half hour readin in there and playin with theCCR Calc !
   Good guestimation would be 42 CC's << Tapp that into the Puter with Deck Height of Say 60 thous  and 92 mm Barrel's it's all self explanatory .
    I gotta go rest My Neck ! It's tired LMAO !
                                                      Sean

Re: pushrod tube length/oil seals

Here's the calculator Sean mentioned: http://www.1800vw.bizhosting.com/motor.computer.htm

Clancy

Re: pushrod tube length/oil seals

I have an engle 110 cam. 

The machinist recommended the decking just to have more sealing surface - why they took off so much, I don't know.  With 090 shims, there was 2mm of clearance between the piston and head at TDC.  From what I've read, this is on the high side of tolerance (1-2mm) but not beyond (3mm+)   At this point I want it there mainly because I'm frightened to death of the potential for my valves hitting the piston and I don't want a super high compression ratio because of the variable quality of gas. 

My rationale is that I can play it safe at this point so I don't damage anything but with the awareness that I'm not optimizing for performance.  Later on, I can always take the jugs off and put smaller shims on (I have plenty!) to optimize compression. 

And the play dough idea for checking valve clearance intrigues me! smile


... also.. if the shims we smaller, this would make the problem WORSE!

Last edited by thebignic (2009-05-26 07:46:53)

-biggie