Topic: A Few Mild Performance Engine Questions

I've been doing a lot of researching during my engine tear down (1600 DP)... and pricing out all the stuff I'm going to need for my rebuild.  I'm going to need a new crank and cam shaft, and the case needs to be align bored already.  So I'm now thinking about getting the case and heads bored out a bit for some larger cylinders (1800cc? 1900cc?)

So... some questions...

How much metal should I expect to be left between the case studs and the outer diameter of the new (larger) cylinders?  Looking at the heads, there does not appear to be a whole lot of room to expand the cylinder at all.  Is this normal?  Can anyone post a close-up picture of some bored out heads?  I'm pretty worried that there wont be enough 'meat' left to be structurally sound.

I assume a counter-weighted, 8 dowel crank with stock journals and stock con rods will be more than adequate for this purpose (1900cc?)... any objections?  Should I invest in beefier con rods?

What kind of cam would any of you recomended for mild street performance?

Hydraulic lifters?

Is it generally ok to run an 1800 or 1900cc with stock oil setup or should I invest in an oil sump and/or external filter (full flow modifications)??

Ideally I'd like to strike a balance between reliability, cost, and performance triangle wink  I'm fully aware that I'm in over my head, just trying to learn smile (And yes, I'm reading everything I can get my hands on - I still want personal feedback!)

-biggie

Re: A Few Mild Performance Engine Questions

Hiya Biggie,

You might find this all a bit easier to do if you were to narrow your possible engine search to one or two prospects.

For example, a 1776 is, in quite few ways, pretty much like putting together a stock engine.  A little machining work, some pretty straightforward math, and you're into assembly.  Or you could exercise some more custom options like cam, carbs, exhaust, etc.  But as you go larger (stroke and bore) you get into engines that demand custom parts and processes.

So.......if you can say I wanna build a 1776 or I wanna build a 1904, it's easier to narrow done what can be done and what should be done.

Mike

1970 AS Bug
1970 Bus - The Ruptured Duck

Re: A Few Mild Performance Engine Questions

Ok 30 year's here talkin on V.W's mild performer !
Bigger is not alway's better ! 1776cc will out runn 1915 cc and 1835 cc will out runn a 1915cc and etc. etc.
  Depend's on the Build !
  CCR come's into play $$$ Definately is a factor as Well as reliability as to what you wanna do !
  Im a bigg 1776cc fann Due to the reliability , and the Longevity being almost eqaul to that of a 1600cc !
  It's my opinion that the Motor is cleaner runnin as in leak's no oil when pushed hard and maintain's itself under presssure hell of a lott better than the 1915cc or the 1835cc
  Meaning your not gonna Push a 1835 as hard as a 1776cc repeatedly and get the Longevity that a 1776cc will give you !
  Yes the 1915 generally produce's more horsey's but at what cost ?? 1915 cc runnin 120 + horse's is gonna be quite spendy !
  1915cc weaken's the case considerably and vibrate's the hell out of the crank shaft ! Now your spendin 400 on a Counterweighted crank, to compensate etc. etc. Might as well stroke ?
  Difference between a 1776 = 90.5 mm Barrel's and a 1835cc = 92 mm barrels is that both size barrel's fitt in the same size case Bore wich is 92mm !
  THe way they get 1835cc over the 1776cc is that the I.D. of the 1835 barrel is larger than 1776cc this make's for a thinner cylinder wall !
  Thinner cylinder wall's runn hotter , and distort allowing for more Blow by past the ring's = Hotter runnin motor over all ! Aside from that they tend to leak more Oil in my opinion !
  One way around this is to reduce the CCR ( Cylinder Compression Ratio ! Reduction in CCR = Reduction in Horse power out put as well As Cylinder and head temp's !
  Head temp's are especially important due to the Fact that a sett of Stock OEM Mexicana Head's runn Approx 300 Buck's Verses a set of 041 or O43 etc runnin uppers of a 1000 + $$$
  Plus if you runn head's there not gonna do you any good unless you Carb 500 too 1200 Dollar's Plus the Eqausion is gas in gas out so Add another 600 + Buck's to the price of  Carb's for Exhaust ! 1 5/8's Kymco is the usual here !
  So now your puttin roughly 2 to 3 Grand intoo a Motor that either Vibrate's and Pound's Main's into Oblivion or runn's Hotter Cyl. And Head Temp's and or has the CCR reduced to such an extent that the Horse out putt is afected negatively !
  Yeah I would love to Jump 20 to 40 Horse's with a 1915 cc Motor but at what Cost to reliability and Longevity . As well as burnin out a sett of High Dollar head's !
  Now say your a Poor Boy like me ?
  I runn 1776cc with Dual 40 IDF's and a 1 1/2 in Dia. Tri Mill Exhaust in a Baja at roughly 8.7-1 CCR This allow's me to use Stock Push rod's ( Weak Link ) V.S. Chromoly or the more Expensive Mitchel's aluminum at 200 buck's a set !
  But add a Camm say the 110 or the 218 webb now you need H.D. valve spring's to prevent Valve stacking, on stock head's  ??
  But the 1776cc will and can affectively run a stock carb ?? A Consideration ! Yett the 1835cc has a Much better flow charcteristic , provided you can afford the carb's and exhaust too affectively take advantage of this flow ?
  Inexpensively speakin ! Build a 1835cc at 8-1 CCR Lighten a German Fly wheel and runn stock head's that have been reworked , on a 110 or 218 Camm Dual Carb's Stock crank ? Horse out put around 80 to 90 horses ! Great motor for a Baja
Open ended car and reduction in CCR will help with the Heat and if you drop a valve your not out the 1000 on head's !
  In a Car Closed Engine Compartment 1776cc Run 9-1 CCR 1000 Dollar's on Head's. Then carb and exhaust . Dont lighten the Fly Wheel I got a 103 Horses ! But this is a very expensive 1776cc But all the Reliability as well as 90% of the Longevity of Stock !
  What I like or better what is affordable, that work's ?
  Stock Standard Case AS41 dual releif case ! Stock crank that has been 8 dowelled to a German Fly wheel on a SPG pattern !
Stock rebuilt Rodd's ! Stock Lifters Clearanced for a Camm ! Stock Push Rodd's ! 110 Engle or a 218 webb camm on a stock camm gear ! Camm gear should be of the Proper Pitch Radiuse as well as you should degree the Camm to the crank !
6mm cylinder stud's with case savers and Cima / Mahle 90 .5  Piston's and Jugg's ! Sett of Mexican Stainless steel valved head's that have been worked and Hemi Cut !
  Weak link here is the Stock Push Rodd's ! I dont like Chromoly ! But you can upgrade to the mitchell's at a later date !
  Most Guy's claim the Stock Push rodd's would be the weak link here ! I Say Yeah and No on this ! As I have a lott more experience pullin motor's apart than I do Buildin them ! Chromoly << On motor's that are completely Smoked is my personal Finding !
  A lott of this can be atributed to In correct Valve Geometry and badd valve adjustment ! But I say it beat's camm's and Lifter's also ! As in No flex in Chromoly ?
  I like a Hemi cutt head ! Make's Higher compression motor's runn smoother in my opinion especially when these motor's are cammed !
  Hemi Cut will reduce the Amount of CCR that can be obtained in the 1776cc Motor But I still gett 8.7-1 CCR runnin the Hemi Cut head and with Shimmin the Rocker's I can obtain a Proper Valve geometry with a stock push rod .
   So to me the 1776cc Motor is all trick's and Less Money ! If a problem doe's occur ! Some work and 500 Buck's or less will generally fix it !
  Start addin High dollar head's and High dollar counter weighted crank's that 500 Buck's or less just Jumped too 1000 + Dollar's Minimum if somethin goe's wrong  !
  Other consideration's here ?? Ya gotta put the Horse's to the ground ! Starting with the Clutch ?
  At around 85 o 90  Horses the stock clutch will start to slipp on a 12 volt fly wheel ! Even the more modern style finger Clutch that is sold with new style throw out arm, and bearing all tho better than old spring style clutche's will start slippin on you around 90 horse's !
  So now you need the Kennedy stage 1 ! Almost gaurateeed that in 1 ta 2 year's of drivin a Kennedy will pop the spot weld's loose on your clutch tube in the tunnel and they also are twice the wear on the pedal assembly clutch hook !
  Not to mention there harder to push in and out ? But at 90 horses expect too runn the Kennedy and this will eventually lead to the Rebuilding of the Tunnel as well as a Pedal assembly inspection plate cut intoo the tunnel !
  So My advice is build a 90 Horse 1776cc have case tapped for a full flow off main galley and keep it fairly stock under 500 buck's in the advent somethin goe's wrong !
  Then take all that money you saved 4 too 5 grand and build a stroker for race day !
  I will say it again ! After 1776 cc your Raceing ! As in it's no longer a Car But a Race car !
  Also do not think that a 1776cc is a fairly stock build ! Cause it is not !
  There are many , Many trick's to building them ! Some 1600cc motor's are runnin 75 Horse's and some 1776cc motor's are puttin out 65 Horses and some 1835's are only puttin out 60 horse's ???? It's all in the Build ! 9-1 CCR is cutt of point for the street ! Generally speaking !
  Strokers generally runn 10 Grand and up from the shop V.S. a 1776cc around 3500 Buck's from a shop !
  Tire size and gearing all come into play with tranaxles as to how fast you are as well as how Light and Heavier you are !
  1776cc in a Baja or Sand Rail ? Lighten the Fly Wheel !
  1776cc in a car ? Dont lighten the fly wheel !!! Etc. Etc.
  1776cc = lott's of trick's and little money !
  Stroker's = Lott's of Money and Lott's of trick's even to be compared as No Man's Land !
  Only as good as the Guy who Build's them !
   1915 cc with a stock tranaxle ?? 14 Sec car !
   1776 cc with built transaxle Low 13. somethin sec . car !
                                                                      Sean

Re: A Few Mild Performance Engine Questions

Sean, thanks for the massive post smile  I get most of what you're saying but I have two questions..

From what I read, you can take like 10-13lbs off a stock 12v german flywheel before adverse effects.  I don't plan to lighten mine quite that much, but I do want to lighten it.  Why do you recommend against lightening the flywheel in a car?

Also, are there better options for a clutch that will perform somewhere inbetween 'spot weld failure' and slippage?

When you say a '110' cam, that this is the Engle 110? or is a '110' a more generic name that just describes the lift/duration of a class of cam?  (excuse my newbishness, cam geometry is something I'm only learning about this week.. among other things smile

Also, are stock cam lifters suitable for a 1776? Or do you use hi-perf lifters?

Last edited by thebignic (2009-02-21 19:46:11)

-biggie

Re: A Few Mild Performance Engine Questions

Yeah Im workin on the 103 horser ( Think now that the ring's are seated might be gettin a Lil more than when we Dyno'd a Virgin motor ??? )
  Seem's were splittin tube's in the rear fork's <<< More thing's you can look forward too ?? LMAO Speed Cost Money !! How fast you wanna go ??
  Tranny is strapped ! Adjusted ! Stock Mount ! BeefedCross member !! Still splittin tube's ? LMAO
  Now on lightening Fly wheel's ! Basic theory is you need the momentum of the stock fly wheel on a 1600cc motor ! To help move a stock weight car !
  But if you counter weight the crank, << Heavier crank ?? Double your Horse power 1776cc ?? Some might say Lighten the flywheel to compensate for added weight of the crank shaft >> But then also if the car is lighter ?? Say a Baja or a Sand Rail or a lightend street car is also a good candidate for Lightening the Flywheel ? But as opposed to  say a fairly stock 1776cc say 85 horser stock crank ? in a fairly stock weight car expected too carry heavy load's often ? Might not wanna lighten the flywheel ??
  The Machinist that does my work I beleive he like's 12.7 LBS and he try's to get a balance when he lighten's ?
  As to Camm yeah Engle 110 or the Webb ! But expect to Degree the Camm to the crank ! I like to use a stock camm gear of the Proper Pitch radiuse like -1 or -2 etc or + 1 +2 +3 etc,  on the Cam ! Have to counter sink the stock gear so bolt's dont interfere with Oil Pump So proper shoulderd bolt is a must ! Beat's the zero pitch radiuse new gear's that are the usual with new cam's etc. Least in my opinion ??
  But yeah stock crank , stock German Fly Wheel 8 dowell'ed SPG , Stock Rod's << Help's to balance the rod's cause 1776cc Vibrates hell out of the crank << Pound's main's etc , And have case tapped for Full Flow , Good motor's !
  I avoid Double thrust Camm  bearing's << My opinion it's better too get the Camm thrust and back lash right on single thrust ! Due to bolting case halve's together can throw it out on double thrust !! << Can be done with double thrust but Lott more labour intensive ?? Have to bolt up check Thrust No way to check back lash ????? Etc. Etc.
  My opinion not right it doesnt matter if you got 2 bearing halve's in there it will wear ??
  But yeah Save the High dollar Rod's and High Dollar crank's and High dollar Fly wheel's etc. etc. For the Stroker Motor's !
  Even with just commin close to doublin the horse's your gonna need to consider some re- configurin of the car ! Like Clutch and throw out bearing and Beefin Tube's up and Beefin Clutch tube and Pedal assembly hook and tunnel etc.
  We strapped But Joel Mohr of Mohr performance offers a Torsion Bracket that straddles the tube's and bolt's to transaxle houseing !! <<< Ive never tried one ? But if it help's to keep tube's from twistin  and splittin down the seam's ??? Might be the way to go ??
  Old Re- Bar Trick ?? Or Somethin ??? I like the Triangle Plate method Ive seen on Off Roader's with Rebar reinforced ??
  As to Clutch Mid way is a 85 to 90 horser Max New style throw out and the New style finger clutch that is new , with fairly small light tire on good Fly wheel clutch surface ??
  Throw a Gravity challenged female in the Mix on a Hard Burn out she will slipp a Lil ?? So 6 1/2 one Dozen or another ??
  Change Clutch out every 2 year's ?? Help's if your car is lighter, Like A Baja Or Sand Rail or Manx etc. ??
  Or just quit tryin to impress Gravity Challenged Female's By Burnin Out ??? Maybe your Like Me And you could Help it a Lil more by Dieting your self ??? LMAO
                                             Sean

Re: A Few Mild Performance Engine Questions

thebignic wrote:

From what I read

You had me at, from what I can read.

1971 Standard Beetle. Answers to the name "Big Bird"
1974 Westfalia. Answers to the name "Winifrid"