• From: Ontario, Canada
  • Registered: 2005-06-11
  • Posts: 266

Topic: Dead starter?

I'm going to consult the requisit manuals when I get home from work, but I thought I'd pop in here and see if anyone had more resources I could check out...

Last night I got my 74 back on the road after a long boring winter in my garage.  Had some difficulty starting her up but I thought it was just a flat battery. After boosting it with my truck and letting her idle for a while she seemed to be running fine, so off I went, down the road.  A few stops later I (inevitably) stalled out at a red light, and went to crank her over again, but nothing happens.

I get the LED's in the dash lighting up, my headlights work, and the overhead lamp has juice.  When I turn the key, the lights dim, but I cannot hear the starter engage at all.  Eventually got it bump-started so its getting spark.

So I'm thinking its either a broken/shorted wire to the starter, or a dead starter.  Is there a solenoid that engages the starter?  I have a vague idea of where it is on the chassis but would like some input on where to start looking for the fault.  (whats easy to check first?)

Other than this, she runs ok. Needs some carb tuning and a new gasket, and maybe a valve adjustment... still havent done my wheel bearing yet (ordered the wrong damn bearing thinking i had a swingline... turned out to be IRS... is the IRS stub axel bearing swap procedure very different from a swingline?)

Thanks volkswebbers!

-biggie

thebignic's Website

  • Registered: 2006-07-20
  • Posts: 332

Re: Dead starter?

I'm thinking that it's that little spatular slide on wire end that goes to your solenoid.  Crawl under there and see if that wire has either fallen off, or is loose.  You state that your lights dim when you turn the key though - that's is elusive.   Check it out, though.  That's happened to me more than once!  The solenoid sits right on top of the starter.
Check your battery cable connections real good - they gotta be nice and clean and tight - if they're dirty, you could get your lights to work, but the very large draw needed for the starter could break the connection.

Last edited by ed stanley (2007-03-27 05:47:44)

  • From: Colorado Springs, CO
  • Registered: 2004-03-27
  • Posts: 3,622

Re: Dead starter?

In addition to Ed's great suggestions, check the ground straps.....both of them. The one from the negative post on the battery to the bolt where it fastens to the body of the car. The second is at the nose cone end of the tranny. There is a webbed cable there that bolts to the nose cone and the body. Clean the connections at both ends. I have found that the nosecone-to-body ground strap is very often the source of many "weak battery" or "weak starter" symptoms.

Next, did you periodically charge the battery while it sat throught the winter? You could have a bad cell, or just a very weak battery. Even a battery with a bad cell is enough to light up the lights but will not have enoungh amperage to turn the starter.

Good luck in your search for the problem.

Clancy

  • Registered: 2004-03-30
  • Posts: 161

Re: Dead starter?

I was having similar problems last summer after my car had been sitting in the garage for about 4 months.  Wasn't having any problems before it sat.  I even replaced the battery and was still having the problem you describe.  Then I did the following modifications, suggested by DrDarby, and I have not had a problem since:

"I replace the webbed groung strap inside the car w/a regular parts
store unit, then run a longer bolt through the frame after cleaning
up the grounding surface. Then install another ground cable from
there to the lower starter bolt. Doing this modification alone cured
18 months of hard to start w/damp and gave me 1.5 volts add'l at the
coil."

Worked like a charm for me.  Had a friend who was having a similar problem with his old Toyota truck.  I tried DrDarby's "cure" on that truck and my friend hasn't had a problem since.

  • Registered: 2007-03-27
  • Posts: 2,422

Re: Dead starter?

Yeah this is typical of Bugg's .
Start with the wire that goe's too Solenoid <<< Clean it good then Clean it again !
After cleaning the Lil wire doin all the pre amentioned wire cleaning from other post .
You can jump the solenoid with screw driver a few time's . <<<< This seem's too fix Vw starter's ?
Im not sure why !
But it work's !
Now the problem with Vw starters is that the Solenoid engagement Hot wire travels front too back of the car twice .
This is inherent long travel reduces the juice gettin too solenoid .
In the Old day's we used Ford solenoids mounted too the body above the starter , and reduced the lenght of travel from a Battery hot too the solenoid too about 2 foot or less .
But today they actually sell a aftermarket relay switch that mounts too the body via a screw right above the starter .
These runn around 20 Buck's and are a 20 minute install , and are known as the big fix for Vw starter Woe's !
I still use Ford solenoids <<< Cause there cheap and I have tonn's of them , and on Higher compression Big bore motors they tend too last longer , or so it seem's !
                                                                                                               Sean

  • Registered: 2006-07-20
  • Posts: 332

Re: Dead starter?

Hey - welcome back, Sean!

  • From: Ontario, Canada
  • Registered: 2005-06-11
  • Posts: 266

Re: Dead starter?

After getting under there, theres a bit of a mess with the wires. I need a proper light so I can get a full picture of whats going on, but the starter is getting warm enough to melt some of the wires in the area (still not sure what they all are) so I'm thinking about doing some wiring also hmm

I tried jumping the solenoid but to no avail.  I think (in addition to a proper work light) I need to get some larger jack stands, as its uncomfortably tight under there (I fit on the INSIDE of the car, but still too fat to fit under it) so I can get in there for a better look, and maybe clean things up a bit.

And the battery seems to be good and strong (placed it back on the charger after a few days of non use and it was fully charged)

So my gut feeling is that the solenoid is dead...   

I'll keep you updated!

-biggie

thebignic's Website

  • Registered: 2007-02-01
  • Posts: 220

Re: Dead starter?

thebignic, If the starter is getting hot, it usually means you don't have a good connection with the wiring.  This could be the ground straps, or it could be the connection where the big positive cable attaches to the starter.  It could also be as simple as the connections at the battery terminals.

Before climbing underneath, get inside and clean the battery terminals.  LEAVE the positive OFF.  Now go under and take that positive cable off of the starter.  Clean the end of the cable, the terminal it attaches to and the nuts which hold it on.  Then put it back together and try the key again.

If you turn the key and get nothing, no click at all, it is probably the solenoid connections,  This would be the little wire that goes to the starter.  Take it off and clean it up.  If you have a helper, you can pull that wire off and put a test light in line.  Have the helper turn the key and see if the test light lights.  If so, you know you have juice going to the solenoid.

If not, you need to trace that wire back and see where the power failure is.  It may be as simple as a dirty battery terminal.

If you turn the key and can hear the solenoid clicking, but the starter motor won't turn, then it is usually the starter brushes.  These are carbon brushes that wear with time.  When they get short, the spring that pushes them can't keep them tight against the armature and so the starter motor won't run.  Sometimes you can tap on the motor with a hammer and try it again and it will work.  The hammer taps have just allowed the short brushes to make a better contact.  If this is your problem, you just need to take the starter off, open it up and replace the brushes.

Most cities will have a starter and alternator rebuiler.  They will usually sell you parts if you stop in and ask.  Or you can take your old brushes to an electric motor repair place and they can match them up for you.  If you can't find the correct size, but you can get brushes that are too fat, you can easily file them to fit your brush holders.  They are pretty soft and can be filed down to what ever thickness you need.  Just don't do this on the dining room table, it really gets the women upset!

Good Luck and let us know what you found!