• From: Bethel Park PA
  • Registered: 2004-06-27
  • Posts: 686

Topic: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

I got to thinking about the practice of switching new Mexican Beetle bodies onto an older Beetle's pan to wind up with, for instance, a 1961 Beetle with a new body, engine and runnuing gear.

It occurs to me that the VW Beetle is a one of a kind car in that there is no other car in the world that has basic intercompatibility and interchangability of parts over a range of more than a couple of years.

The identity of a car has to be established with some standard.  For most cars, that standard would be the VIN which, by law, must be changed yearly to reflect the year of the car's manufacture. 

The laws regarding safety and emissions which went into effect in the late 70s specified that cars would have to meet the stanards for the year in which the car was made, AND that the car model would have to be tested and recertified on a yearly basis.

Thereafter, no manufacturer could produce or sell a car which did not meet all standards after testing, which included crash tests.

The Beetle could continue to meet emissions but could not meet the crash tests.  There were attempts made before the laws tightened up, such as shock absorbing bumpers and collapsablle steering collumns, but finally, the Beetle just could not maintain its familiar shape and still incorporate the required safety devices to be aable to meet all standards of safety.

The rest of the world could continue doing what it wanted with their cars, but they could not import them into the U.S. unless the standards were met.  Thus we saw the demise of new Beetles coming into the U.S.

When these safety laws were written, I feel certain that the legislaters never contemplated that someone could so easily create what was essentially an illegal car by dropping an otherwise illegal new body onto an otherwise legal frame.  I realy can think of no other car which could be changed like this. 

Additionally, in the legislater's thinking, many, and eventually most, cars were being made as unibody units which are impossible to change with newer bodies.

The VW is the only car in the world that continued in production virtually unchanged past 1978 or so and is therefore the only car in the world where one can put the new components (read: entire body and running gear) on an older legal car.

I;m sure the VW simply fell through the legal cracks for this issue.  I'm also sure that if the Fed. Gov't. or any state gov't wanted to, they could see through the subferfuge that we have available to us and clamp down on these swaps.  After all, the cars have the VIN on both the frame and body.  If The Man wanted to get real prickey, we'd have a hard time explaning why the frame VIN doesn't match the body VIN, or why the body VIN has been removed.

David H
'66 VW Beetle w/sunroof
http://tinyurl.com/qhw59
"Where am I going ... and why am I in this handbasket?"
  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio
  • Registered: 2005-09-10
  • Posts: 2,336

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

My personal opinon regarding the placing of newer Mexi-Beetle bodies on an older VW Beetle Chassis to make them "registerable" in the U.S., is that the practice should be & probably is illegal.

But it seems like because there have been business(s) mentioned here on Volkswebbin that actually do this...it seems that the practice has in some way been legitimized. 

Also, because of the relative uniqueness of the VW Beetle "bolt-on" body & the amount of time that has past since air-cooled VW Beetles have been produced in the U.S., the average DMV is either unaware or isn't concerned with the placing of newer Mexi-Beetle bodies on older chassis.

In addition, consider how many vehicles that have bolt-on bodies like the VW Beetle that were produced in the U.S (probably very very few)...then a bunch of years go by (20+) where this model vehicle is out of production in the U.S...then some creative folks realize that the nice new Mexi-Beetle bodies with brand spanking new interiors will bolt right onto an older VW Beetle chassis.

Consider the uniqueness of all of these factors & then add in the # of these conversions that are actually done relative to the # of vehicles the average DMV processes each year (probably very very few), and you can see how a conversion like this would probably cruise thru most DMV's registration process...except for maybe a couple of border states such as Texas & California where they may be a bit more "savvy" to this process.

The bottom line is, if the body VIN# & the Chassis VIN # don't match, then the car is a "hybrid or a Mutt"!...all be it a very nice looking "hybrid/mutt"!  Which is probably fine for most folks looking for a nice shiny original style VW Beetle, that doesn't need a complete restoration to look good.

In my experience of registering around 30 vehicles in 6 different states over the years...most DMV's either check the VIN # that is on the dashboard or the sticker that is in the drivers side door jam...and hardly if ever demand to see the VIN # stamped on the chassis. 

Therefore if the conversion of putting a Mexi-Beetle body on an older VW chassis is performed so that it can be "more easily" registered in the U.S....then the VIN # displayed on the Beetles dashboard and/or the sticker in the door jam must be a U.S. VIN because this is where the average DMV inspector is going to look for the VIN! 

In order to do this, the door jam sticker and/or dashboard VIN would have to be removed from the "donor chassis" Beetle, and placed on/in the Mexi-Beetle body!  This is clearly an illegal thing to do, and this is one reason why this conversion is probably illegal.

This is just my personal opinon. 

I would love to hear counter arguments and/or experiences.  Especially how many people out there when registering their Beetles (Mexi-Beetles or U.S. air-cooled Beetles) had to remove their backseat to verify VIN #'s. 

Thanks,

- Nick

1979 Super Beetle Convertible
  • TomB
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Austin, TX
  • Registered: 2004-03-27
  • Posts: 1,095

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

When I took delivery of my 2nd Mexi I was shown a letter from DOT about the BeetleMex cars confirming that the "remanufacturing" of putting new body and parts on the older chassis was legal, and they verified the car did meet the standards in effect at the time the original car (as determined by the chassis) was manufactured.
Mine were also inspected and verified (by chassis VIN) when registered and titled in Texas - and yes they knew to look under the rear seat.
The VIN on the tunnel was the official VIN as far as VW was concerned, although the US made them add a plate to the dash for easy inspection. (My 62 owners manual still shows only the tunnel mark for the VIN - no dash plate yet.) You have to remember the VW was often re-bodied with home-made and kit car bodies over the years, and they were also registered by the chassis ID. Body panels were available to replace any place the VIN was located on the body when making repairs, so the chassis was declared official as the one place "constant" that would not be replaced.
Oh, and the VW was not the only car being produced by "remanufacturing" to add mainly new parts - just the easiest to do so. I think I recall Shelby was doing the same with Cobras recently... and there were a few others. It is a business for people wanting "new" classic cars. Most would have to build a reproduction body - so that is what the Mexican body is considered.

  • From: Bethel Park PA
  • Registered: 2004-06-27
  • Posts: 686

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

A somewhat related swapping situation existed here in Pennsylvania when emissions testing first became a requirement.

The need for an emissions test was dependent on the serial number of the engine.  If the engine was manufactured in a year covered by the emissions law then it would have to be testes, and pass if it was to continue being used.

This resulted in some strange events.  If two rodders had identical 1932 Fords, one with a 1957 Chevy engine and the other with a 1980 Chevy engine, the one with the 1980 engine would need to pass emissions testing while the one with the 1957 wouldn't.

Likewise, you could install a 1957 engine in your 1985 Chevy and you would no longer need the emissions test, but if you put the 1985 engine in the 1957 car, you would need the test.

I have no idea if this is still the case but it did cause a lot of confision at the time.

David H
'66 VW Beetle w/sunroof
http://tinyurl.com/qhw59
"Where am I going ... and why am I in this handbasket?"
  • Registered: 2005-11-23
  • Posts: 33

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

Just doing a body swap here in Washington state like I did was enough hassle. Basically the same thing you are doing. We used to have quite a few inspection stations around that inspected trailers, Harleys, modified cars like mine, etc. They wanted all kinds of receipts. I mean they wanted to know where the tires, wheels, interior parts, gas heater, seats, glass..you name it. They were anal to say the least. I finially told the guy to look at how many vw's were registered to me and that is where the parts came from. He came back and said unless there were 3 adults living at my house I was against county code for having so many cars at one residence ("oh yeah, there are at least that many adults here, sir") ;-)
I had numerous receipts that I gathered up. If you have an engine with no engine number like I did, you need a receipt to show ownership of the case/engine. I was building another motor, so took that receipt.(yeah, cheating the system is almost a must with some of these old farts)  This guy had an attitude from the start.  I had to explain that I had the title for the chassis...this includes the tires and wheels @#@$#$#@. The chassis is the chassis, including the running gear. The guy was a pain in the ass to say the least. They did give me a title in the end, but I had no NOTORIZED bill of sale. You need a notorized bill of sale to prove you bought the body/car.(in the case of what I did anyway) In the end I had to wait 3 years for a statue of limitations type law to actually get the title. It took me 9 months due to my improper paperwork just to get that much out of them. I am legal now with a 57 body on a 70 pan, but it was a pain in the ass.  Mostly it was my lack of knowledge of what they needed/wanted (key word wanted...as they are not uniform from station to station here with the rules) Get information from more than one source in your state if possible. Our DMV is not uniform with what they need/want either. The system can be a mess...Good luck

  • Registered: 2005-11-23
  • Posts: 33

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

P.S.  Our state patrol will check your pan numbers on vw's if they think something is "up"  They are well informed of the location. I had a friend get a ticket for not doing things "right"

  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio
  • Registered: 2005-09-10
  • Posts: 2,336

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

Craig T,

Sounds like that DMV guy you were dealing with was having a REAL bad day, as was making things up as he went along just to hassle you!

If such a law exists (as your DMV guy eluded to) as "too many cars at one residence".  I would love to see what the exact wording is for that law. 

I would be interested in knowing if there is a maximum # of autos allowed to be registered to one residence...or how many autos are allowed to be registered to each adult at the residence.

I guess each state has their "funky" laws.

I am surprised to hear that you put a 57 body on a 70 chassis.  I would think then that vehicle would be registered as a 1970...which is not as "braggable" as a 1957.  But I guess from a practical point of view, the 57 chassis was probably shot...and the important thing was to have a solid chassis under the 57 body style that you were proud of.

Thanks for the Washington State DMV info.

- Nick

1979 Super Beetle Convertible
  • Registered: 2005-11-23
  • Posts: 33

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

Well.....the unfourtunate thing was I had to keep dealing with the same guy because each guy at the department had their own specialties. Time after time I had to go back to the same guy. I did not want to drive many many miles to go somewhere else and have possibly the same problem. This guy did not like vw's obviously. It would probably help if the car was not multi colored. I was only interested in saving the 57 body from the scrapyard. I have really never fixed it up much as I have a 56 with no rust and is a very solid car. The 57 is such a toolbox people want to race me and I can actually whoop some ass with it off the line...
We do have a law that varies from city to city and county to county. Where I live they say no more than 3 vehicles per adult at the residence. I am friendly to the neighbors and have most in garages. There is only 2 cars out front and 3 in the backyard (which you have to look through the fence to really see anyway) Another law some cities have here is the cars must be on pavement and not on grass or gravel. That is a different city code than mine, but you never know when they come up with that law here. No cars on the front or back lawn. Well...my whole backyard is asphalt anyway...
Our home insurance in this state can choose not to insure due to too many cars as well. Safety and fire hazards is what they say. I lived with a bunch of other people at a rental house and we had to remove the gas tanks and batteries and the city had no choice but to let us be after that in that city. Key words "that city"
The 57 is supposed to be registered, and is registered as a 70/homebuilt. I had a title for the chassis, but no title for the 57. Only a bill of sale, but not notorized. That was my big mistake right there, and I knew it at the time of purchase. The car was going to the scrapyard the next day though...so I bought it. The guy had to move it as he sold his house and it was the last day to get rid of it. I just thought it would be a bit easier to get registered. The guy at the inspection place said even if you bought a house with the car on the land with no title, that the car is not yours and can just let it sit and rust in your yard. It is not yours was his opinion. Sounds funny, but might be true here. Very anal about that stuff here.
King County Wa has a law that you cannot build on 60% of your land due to environmental reasons, etc. You pay 100% of taxes and cannot use 60% of your land. This state has major problems in my opinion. The rural areas around here are mad as hell at Ron Sims for allowing and supporting this kind of action against homeowners. I am fed up with it myself. I need a new place to live, but cannot handle heat. Either have to move to Alaska or stay on the northern west coast. And believe me, I am moving. Maybe not out of state, but out of this county (King). I had to move out of this county back in the late 70's early 80's due to desegragation of schools. I lived 4 blocks from school and they were going to bus me way down south so the racial balance was more equal. My mistake was ever moving back.....Craig

  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio
  • Registered: 2005-09-10
  • Posts: 2,336

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

Craig,

Thanks for the additional info.  It is definitely interesting to hear some of the different sorts of laws in other states.  It makes one appreciate the laws one has or doesn't have.

I am sure that the 3 cars per person per household law was meant to cut down on people having one or more "parts" cars sitting on the property or just too many cars visable from the street...unfortunutely, that law also punishes those people who are maintianing all of their cars in a safe and drivable condition. 

The 60% law isn't so bad if you have a really big property, but if you have less than an acre or so I can see how if you decided you wanted to use your space to build on (like an extra big garage) instead of having a larger lawn...then that law could be pretty restrictive.  I am sure the state is trying to preserve green spaces...but that law again is punishing the folks with small properties.

Here is a screwy thing going on in my area.  I am in Cincinnati, Ohio (only been here a couple of years)...and a number of years ago they decided (as a temporary measure) to institute an auto emissions testing program. 

Now a number of years later, I guess that they found that overall air quality has not really improved that much, and so they need to focus on other areas to reduce pollution (like focus on industrial pollution)...plus the other problem is two major interstates go thru Cincinnati so a lot of the auto pollution is from cars & a LOT of 18 wheelers that just pass thru the area & leave their smog behind!

Anyway...they are phasing out the emissions program.  We found out about this earlier this year.  So the screwy thing is...everyone knows that the emissions program is being phased out for about the last year...yet if your car is due to be emission tested this year (only needs to be done every 2 years) you still have to go & pay your $20 to have your car emission tested even though the program is ending.

They really should not have announced that the program was ending so much in advance...or once they decided to end the program about a year ago they just should have ended it then!

Anyway...thanks again for the info,

- Nick

1979 Super Beetle Convertible

10 Reply by Sean,s

  • Sean,s
  • Guest

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

Illegal Body Swapp,s ?? << that cinches it ! Here In Calif I lost a 75 Ford F- 100 I Built In Texas Too so called Illegal Motor Swapp I Built A 429 PI Small Spark plugged Hole Head Motor intoo f-100 was a 72 motor out of the old sherriffs car he had wrecked left out on his momm,s property . anyhow brought it out too calif apaun registration i was referd too a referee << Givin me a False sense of Fairness ! Illegal motor swapp ! <, First time I ever Heard Such Non sense ! Yeah Im Talkin 500 Buck,s just on a 3;83 Ring and pinion . <, Not counting Axles Had 600 in a 5 Core Radiator Etc Etc . Light Truck with A.c. and Disc Brakes With Big Motor !!! << Lotts of Blood sweat and tear,s With Lott,s of cash ! They killed my truck ! I hate the state of Calif ! The Refereee <<< Hate Him most of all ! Pretty Damm sure he is a Communist ! The Guy Drives a GMC Mini Truck ! <, Now that should be Illegal ! 4 eyed Percy,s drivin GMC mini truck,s ! Complete with a ashtmatic Inhaler !I mean the guy even sported a NASCAR coffeee cup ! << Now that S--t should definately be Illegal ! We could write the Law under Too Much of a wimpy geek law or somethin ? Think I went Too High School With the Guy But I couldnt recognize him Due Too the fact Im Pretty sure he spent most of his time in School in the Locker Room Runnin around with an Athletic supporter over His Head ! << definately need a law against people like that ! Now we Have passed the thresh hold Of Illegal Body swapp,s ! Ya Call this a free Country ? Where would all the new car,s be ? Ifn it wasnt for all The So called Illegal body swapp,s and illegal motor swapp,s and outlaw,s , Hot Roddin Car,s ! More lives been saved Due Too these guy,s and there Ideas, experimentation in  Automotive Technology Than was ever lost Dragg Racing, on the street,s thru the 50,s 60,s and 70,s ! Yett we call this a Free Country ? the only people who benefitt from these law,s are people like Montel William,s , Ophra Winfrey , Phil Donahue , And Dr. Phil ! And one of the advantages of drivin a Buggy <, A.m. radio only No Accidental Listening Too Dr. Laura On F.m. Radio ! LMAO I think Bugg,s Should be exempt From The Stupidity Along with all Hot Rodders . How Much Smogg is out there from car,s truck,s with 70,s 80,s 90,s emmisssion technology that was junk ? Yett what we rely on for Emmission,s control in the Millenium, is what Hott Rodders been saying all along >> Computerized Solid state ignition,s with Fuel Injection !  Sean

  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio
  • Registered: 2005-09-10
  • Posts: 2,336

Re: Body switching, Mexican Beetles, etc.

Sean's,

I sort of feel your pain (since I haven't experienced California DMV laws directly)...since I considered relocating to San Francisco for a new job. 

The job ended up not working out...but while I was considering it I was looking at things like home prices, commute times, and of course DMV laws. 

I always knew that California DMV laws were tough...but they are even tougher when you really get into the details when your thinking of moving there. 

Just an example is the 30 year emission testing exemption instead of the 25 year that a lot of other states have.  Or the fee/tax/ripoff you have to pay on each vehicle brought in from outside the state of California to somehow "Californiaize" it to be legal to drive there.  This gets pretty pricey & a lot of work when you own multiple vehicles!

I am sure you know many more of these tough Cali DMV laws.

- Nick

1979 Super Beetle Convertible