• From: UK
  • Registered: 2004-05-21
  • Posts: 13

Topic: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

Hi all,
The instructions with an EMPI conversion bush to run a 6V starter in a 12v transmission says it is a tight tapped-on fit onto the starter shaft and then the starter is fitted to the case, so obviously the bush revolves with the starter shaft and runs in the case.  It's a bronze or brass bush which I assume is softer than the magnesium case so it wears and not the case.

Can anyone confirm that this is OK and doesn't destroy the case?

I've seen others advertised as steel bushes, do these fit like the normal starter bushes?

Thanks Chris

2 Reply by Guest

  • Guest
  • Guest

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

Hey yeah look wether or not it,s 12 v or 6 v doesnt matter here on wether or not has bushing as 12 v and 6 v both have a brass bushing for the starter shaft / What it sounds like ya have here is a conversion sized brass bushing too run a 6v starter in a 12 volt transaxle ! My question is why ? And are you aware that this will only work with a 6 volt fly wheel ? 6 volt starter >> Needs 6 volt fly wheel . << this usually lead,s too a whole other can of worm,s with pressure plate too clutch too throw out bearing , too throw out bearing arm , and shaft combo << Just few of my favorite things that make me bump my head on floor ? Yes the bushing will work! But will rest of your set up work ? there are 11 different combos or way,s you can set thing,s up that i know of but i need specific,s and as im not a genuise so sure help,s when i can look at thing,s << Never happen,s but post with car make model engine type etc << Be complete with all info includeing type of pressure plate any throw out arm or throw out arm shaft or throw out arm bearing and reason,s why you are changeing too 6 volt . Sean

  • From: UK
  • Registered: 2004-05-21
  • Posts: 13

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

Hey yeah look wether or not it,s 12 v or 6 v doesnt matter here on wether or not has bushing as 12 v and 6 v both have a brass bushing for the starter shaft / What it sounds like ya have here is a conversion sized brass bushing too run a 6v starter in a 12 volt transaxle ! My question is why ? And are you aware that this will only work with a 6 volt fly wheel ? 6 volt starter >> Needs 6 volt fly wheel . << this usually lead,s too a whole other can of worm,s with pressure plate too clutch too throw out bearing , too throw out bearing arm , and shaft combo << Just few of my favorite things that make me bump my head on floor ? Yes the bushing will work! But will rest of your set up work ? there are 11 different combos or way,s you can set thing,s up that i know of but i need specific,s and as im not a genuise so sure help,s when i can look at thing,s << Never happen,s but post with car make model engine type etc << Be complete with all info includeing type of pressure plate any throw out arm or throw out arm shaft or throw out arm bearing and reason,s why you are changeing too 6 volt . Sean

Thanks for responding:
Its an original  64 T34 with a 6v engine and flywheel, the transmission is getting a bit worn so I'm changing it and there are some serious advantages to using a later 12v type instead of rebuilding the old one  .ie  new main pinion bearings are no longer available for the old 6v types, the clutch with guide tube is better and cheaper;  if I ever wanted to convert to 12v the bellhousing would be big enough for a 12v flywheel, etc etc.  So I want to have this late model recon exchange box but use my original starter and flywheel .  So I needed a conversion starter bush and when I read the instructions it says the bush is tightly fitted on the starter and rotates in the case, instead of being tight in the tranny case and rotating on the starter shaft.  I was concerned that this would wear the case but it is a well known make (EMPI) and no-one seems to have reported any trouble.   Karmann Konnection who I got it from say they have supplied loads with no problems.  I wonder if anyone out there has fitted these and if they work OK?
Chris

  • From: Wellington, New Zealand
  • Registered: 2004-03-28
  • Posts: 50

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

The bushing for using a 6v starter in a 12v trans are very thin. Just like shim metal. Works OK, but I suggest being very careful in installing the bush so it doesn't crinkle or bend when installing it. Ideally, install the bush in the trans with some round metal thing (drill bit, old starter shaft) tight fit inside it to make sure it doesn't change shape. And make sure the new bush is 100% inside the aluminium case or it may work loose.

I had some trouble once doing this and the result was damage to the trans case and a hole for the bushing that was no longer the correct shape.

The solution to this can be to use an Auto-stick starter. These are more powerful, and do not use the out-board bearing. Only available in 12v though I think. I wish I could find one at a reasonable price.

Brian

Brian-in-NZ's Website

  • From: Wellington, New Zealand
  • Registered: 2004-03-28
  • Posts: 50

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

The bushing for using a 6v starter in a 12v trans are very thin. Just like shim metal. Works OK, but I suggest being very careful in installing the bush so it doesn't crinkle or bend when installing it. Ideally, install the bush in the trans with some round metal thing (drill bit, old starter shaft) tight fit inside it to make sure it doesn't change shape. And make sure the new bush is 100% inside the aluminium case or it may work loose.

I had some trouble once doing this and the result was damage to the trans case and a hole for the bushing that was no longer the correct shape.

The solution to this can be to use an Auto-stick starter. These are more powerful, and do not use the out-board bearing. Only available in 12v though I think. I wish I could find one at a reasonable price.

Brian

Brian-in-NZ's Website

  • Registered: 2004-05-21
  • Posts: 71

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

These are some. See # 34 -> http://www.1800vw.bizhosting.com/0.electrical.parts.htm

vicsvw's Website

  • From: UK
  • Registered: 2004-05-21
  • Posts: 13

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

Thanks for the replys guys.  Interesting that in the UK EMPI sell the bronze bush which is fitted tight on the starter and rotates in the tranny casing but on their web site they show a steel bush which fits like normal ones into the casing and the starter revolves inside the bush.  This sounds much safer!

Rgds chris

8 Reply by Guest

  • Guest
  • Guest

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

Yeah hey again  I think ? So were still talking regular transaxle here on a T-34 << Dont get the T-34 type 3 suit case on a type 4 transaxle im guessin im primarily t-1 guy here but can tell ya this transaxle starter deal is same on old swing arm buss i actually slowed down here read and thought out this reply ? Ok  difference in 6 volt too a 12 volt starter is the O.D. on the shaft? Now starter shaft bushing i recall was a tight fit ? And we here in So. Cal. have had considerable trouble with throw out bearing shaft,s aftermarket not wantint too fit ? And requireing some mild grinding curseing tuneing up and hand fitting . Now on that bushing less something i never saw afore <, But if basically same thing as Bus Transaxle ?? But the bushing doesnt spinn in the transaxle case . << I know this from just basic metallurgy your not gonna spin a bearing at a high rpm in a magnesium hole less ya line the hole with a sleeve . Now memmory i have here says that the only difference in these bushing,s is there thickness atween the I.D. and the O.D. at least on type 1 vehicles if O.D. is too small then they gave you wrong bushing ? << NOW Like point out that most upgrades like this are in the reverse of what it is you want to do . Most folk,s are trying too gett a 12 volt starter too work in a 6 volt tranny > << Maybe where the confusion started and  parts guy might have handed ya wrong bushing. Now if my memmory serves me and it never does what i think or some where in my brain says that maybe this bushing doessnt exist ? << Because all ya need is the original 6 volt bushing and chuck it up in a lathe and turn the O.D. too required spec,s for the I.D. On the 12 volt transaxle > Wixch after lott of head scratchin cause im too lazy too go look im gonna say with almost certainty this is the deal .    Sean

  • From: Washington, Indiana
  • Registered: 2004-03-27
  • Posts: 1,425

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

These are the Facts on starter bushings.  The bugs up to and including 1966 had 6 volt starter bushings. 1967 and on they had 12 volt starter bushings which were smaller on the inside and smaller on the outside. There is a thick brass bushing that was manufactured to allow a 12 volt starter to be used on an older 6 volt transmission. It has the bigger outside diameter of the six volt transmission and the smaller inside diameter of the 12 volt starter shaft. The other type bushing is a real thin bushing that allows a 6 volt starter (with the bigger shaft) to be installed on a 12 volt transmission case (that has a smaller hole than the 6 volt transmission case) The instructions on the one I bought says to grease it good and install it onto the 6 volt starter shaft. Then grease the bushing real good and "very carefully" install the starter into the 12 volt starter hole in the 12 volt transmission case. The bushing is very thin and requires regular changing to keep the starter from "dragging" when the bushing wears out. "regular changing" can mean anywhere from 30 days to a year, depending on many factors. If you have to use these bushings, buy a few extra for spares.  Yancey

Yancey's Website

  • From: UK
  • Registered: 2004-05-21
  • Posts: 13

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

Yancy,
Thanks for the reply, what you described is what I expected the instructions to say, fit the thin walled bush to the starter well greased and fit the starter into the case so it locates the bush nice and straight.  Well the EMPI bush says to TAP it onto the starter and grease it and fit the starter which is what we did.  It was a very tight fit on the starter shaft and needed tapping down as they said, and it was a looser fit in the case, so it is obviously intended to revolve with the starter shaft and bear on the case. I'm going to shop around for one that fits as you describe before this one wears the case too much.  I'm happy to check the condition of it on a regular basis once its installed.
Rgds Chris

11 Reply by Guest

  • Guest
  • Guest

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

Yipp what i thought what i kinda rememberd but never had no wear problem,s and think im right 6 volt bushing is just turned down too make 6 volt too 12 volt conversion, ok new that ! LMAO yeah ones i do is primarily t-1 , car 6 volt transaxle too 12 volt fly wheel by grindin um out then 12 volt starter . Knew conversion could be done in reverse but thought i rememberd just turnin a 6 volt brass bushing down on a Lathe Ok memory suck,s  Sean

  • From: UK
  • Registered: 2004-05-21
  • Posts: 13

Re: Conversion starter bushes 12v trans and 6v starter

Hi all,
I fitted a Bugpack steel bush last night and it slid on the starter shaft nice and easy and was a good firm fit in the tranny case. Problem solved, the EMPI bush was out of spec. I had to hammer it off the starter shaft it was so tight.  I checked the measurements and it was too small, both inside and outside diameter.  EMPI say they will check their stock to see if any more are out of tolerance and they will change their instructions to say that the bush should slide on the starter, not be tapped on.

Thanks to those who replied.